[Music]
the other day hell that's been
30 years ago
and then also some friends of mine
during the gulf war
they uh
landed cargo
and they'd get over cairo
and they'd ge they'd give them to middle
east control which were americans and
they and it was always at night and they
give them this left right up down stuff
you know and then then turn on your
lights and there was a runway and they'd
land and tax at the end and then they'd
unload
and then
pull away and then give them the heading
of the runway you know they couldn't see
anything it was just absolutely black
and then when they took off
um
you know all they had was the runway
lights and then they'd go to middle east
command
where was that based
just
northeast northwest of her guide
elsewhere okay
there's so much
background noise
and this room
has been under uh
radio surveillance since
john lear
take one
okay john okay this room has been under
surveillance both by the
british and the american
since uh
1986 and i'm not sure why it started
then
and
for some reason um
no uh
electronic information getting from this
room into the living room and they're
they're
broadcasting or pulling information that
way
so um
i've had the telephone people up here
and they say yeah it's your phone well
this is in the old days when they used
to tap phones your phone was tapped at
the mainframe and there's no paperwork
to go with it
and
then they got all this new fangled stuff
and
they take they come in here and they
take what they want
and i you know
uh when they say they come
when they say they come in here they
sort of arrive out of thin air like they
do with dr rowney kilda right i've never
seen him i've never seen anybody that's
what i mean there's stuff just stuff
misses missing such as
oh photos that i keep in here are the
bennowitz photos the benowitz photos
were uh
the stuff that he shot out of his uh
that he took out of his house he lived
just above and outside of the monsanto
weapons storage area behind kirtland air
force base and he would see the saucers
taking off and he
rigged up a
television uh recording
uh thing he would record a a tv screen
those are the days we didn't have none
of this existed you know the stuff we
have
and
then he took stills of the little domes
that would land there and then take off
so you know a lot of stuff has
disappeared i'm trying to remember what
the
what i noticed the other day that would
be stuff that you would personally
notice and you would personally know
where it was yeah yeah so they see with
your eyes right
they see and hear with your ears and
your eyes absolutely that's how it works
is that spooky or walk
it was when i first learned about it but
um
now it's just normal
who was the real john lear oh i keep
seeing that
i'm gonna put it in
i'm not sure who the real john lear is i
was uh
i was picked for a very special mission
and uh
i'm just kind of learning out about it
now
the first 40 years of my life i was uh
pilot and
really enjoyed it i
i did everything there was to do flying
flew everywhere flew everything
and i i flew in the best of times like
in the middle east in africa uh it was
before the british came down there and
started organizing stuff we could get
away with anything you know and and get
away with i mean we could transfer
arms and and ammunition anywhere all
over the middle east and in africa and
then the british started coming in and
telling
the uh the various governments
how to uh
how to check on airplanes they came in
and how to check ids and and how to
uh
figure out who owned a particular
airplane and whether it was properly
registered that kind of stuff so we had
one airplane that we based out of cairo
and on the on one side it was all
equatorial guinea
airline markings and on the other side
it was all liberia markings so wherever
we'd go into that was
particularly friendly to one or two one
of the governments or the other that's
the way we park so that the tower could
see oh yeah they're equatorial guinea
they're okay you know so
um
and then for parts we had a run out of
uh
cartoon
and we'd take cattle
uh to the um
um
jews
let's see what was it
sudan not the sudan
aidan north ayden we'd fly into sauna
north donna it was a nice runway there
and we were flying a i was flying an old
707 that had the rolls-royce engines on
it
and we would take cattle
and it wasn't a cargo configuration 707
it was just passenger uh and of course
we take all the passenger seats out and
then we load the cattle
and we'd fly them into um
sauna
and unload there oh that was anything
special about the cows yeah just cows to
feed the soldiers they were buying them
from the sudan
and
the way that we supported our airplane
got
parts as there was one 707 that was
wrecked off the side of the runway in
sauna and then
air sudan
had landed short of the runway in
khartoum about
two miles short of the runway in the
nile and there was a 707 that was just
parked in the middle of the runway and
we got parts from that mainly from the
tail and stuff so those were our spare
parts
our supply of spare parts
the main base was up in egypt
and it was uh
the company was named air trans
and
the
head-on show was hank horton who was one
of the premier
gun runners
of the
century and he's who i worked for
and
when i was in cairo
uh that was the
that was when
bush
was uh
trying to get elected over
no no reagan was trying to get elected
over uh
um
carter and call and then you remember
the october surprise that was in the uh
uh october
of uh 1980
and um
bush went over to
paris to meet with a with
representatives of comani and i forget
what the name of the guy was but this is
when bush was in the cia he was director
director and so
his deal was to the commany if you delay
the release of the hostages
until
reagan's
inauguration if he's inaugurated we'll
give you unlimited arms and ammunition
for the rest of our administration so
the kulmani did
delay the release of the hostages
and
then when reagan was uh
elected
uh they started funneling arms into
tehran
uh through tel aviv and i was supposed
to fly those arms but what happened is
and this was in 91 when they finally got
around to
to uh
delivering them
what happened is the first the mossad
was running the operation
and they uh
sent engine argentinian cl-44
as a first run because they didn't want
to reach the 707s
getting uh
downed or anything in case anybody was
going to get upset
and the cl-44 went in terran dropped the
arms and then on its way out the
russians shot it down
30 miles south of the air van and nobody
can figure out why they got shot down
because they knew that
there was false beacons there we'd all
been briefed exactly what the route was
you know there should have been no
problem they didn't have anything on
board you know so the only thing we can
figure is that
that the crew just
that the russia sent down migs
to
you know force them into russia to put
them force them down and the crew
probably said well hell we got nothing
on board we'll just follow him so as
soon as they got inside the border of
russia they just shot him down and the
message was
don't take these arms to tehran
they let you get the arms in but not out
in other words the arms were delivered
by the us to seragosa and then um
the israelis would pick it up in
zaragoza and transfer to tel aviv and
then we'd pick it up in tel aviv and our
mission was taken from tel aviv to
terran so
i never did that because when the cl-44
got shot down the whole operation went
to the gulf
they used either used cutter or um
uh dubai or one of those places and they
took it just across the gulf to terran
i never found out what how they or
whether they delivered the arms were
delivered but i don't know how what kind
of arms
uh whatever the um iranians that ordered
whatever it was you know just
small arms that's about all we can take
in those airplanes
uh it was about that time
that we were taking arms from uh athens
greece
to johannesburg
and uh
i remember let's see listen i don't
remember what the year i knew the year
was 81 or something and there was one
last flight to be made
out of athens and the government was
going to change the next day
and
i don't know what they had in the
airplane
but
it was at night in athens and uh
i remember hank came out
and he said uh you're pretty heavy so
you can uh you can stop and refuel in
nairobi and then go on down to
johannesburg
and
the one thing you don't want to do is
when you have arms is stop halfway
and so
uh it gives too many uh people too much
of a chance to look at what you got
so i kind of figured it out i said i
think i can make it non-stop hank and he
said well i'll give you a thousand extra
if you make it non-stop ah no problem so
i told the crew that we were going to
take off way over gross weight at athens
going to the north there and uh but no
problem we went up took it over and uh
took it off and climbed to altitude and
hank always claimed that he would get
his clearance for the different
countries but he never did so
yeah europe's a bit that's a bit right
it's a bit tricky yeah not even
so
uh my uh co-pilot name was munchie
because always lunch and stuff
we get down over um
cairo was no problem but we get down
over sudan and we meet the fir
and the flight information region and we
have to report in
and
munchie goes uh
sudan sudan
boeing uh
five two six uh estimate
or over uh khartoum and two six estimate
the border one run you know uh over
and sudan would come up and say cartoon
cartoon roger uh please give us your
overflight clearance number
and then when she would go
cartoon cartoon cartoon this is boeing
five two six uh over cartoon at two six
flight level three five zero estimate
the fire at uh
four niner over
and then sudan would go or cartoon would
come back
707 we demand the you know that you give
us the overclock clearance you know so
it was at night who what they were going
to send up you know to shoot us down i
don't know but
it was a lot of fun working with them
and i think they are the total time to
johannesburg was 11 hours
and we made it non-stop so that was a
nice flight
this is the cartoon operation that was
hank wharton he's the guy that we work
for and this is uh
joe weber my engineer and this was a
cartoon or a sudan co-pilot
and this was taken in cairo and
that's in the cockpit
and there's another picture here oh
that's insana right there yeah that's
inside
just called it just all them all the way
across
burton talking claptrap right
but who was the the
arms for in south africa
i don't know who those were for but uh
during the
falkland war
we had a deal it never came off but
um
what the uh
my part of it was to fly the airplane to
austin belgium
and uh
wait at the airport and then france was
going to send
the exocet missiles
in the train up to austin
and they would they said that they would
leave them at the the uh
yard there the train yard for two hours
and then go back to france and if we
could get it off we could get the exits
off in that time
then we could have them otherwise they
weren't going to wait
and so everything had to come into place
for for this to happen and it never
happened but
um we were supposed to
uh take the exits from
austin to
direct non-stop to johannesburg or not
something we're going to land at sal
which belongs to uh an island that
belongs to portugal in the middle
atlantic and then non-stop to
johannesburg and johannesburg was
shipping them to the argentineans
uh who were going to blow up you know
use them for the british but
that was a big secret in those days and
uh france didn't want the british to
know that they were really you know
sending those exercise missiles
and then in 1977 i got a call to
go to frankfurt
i wasn't working at the time i don't
think see yeah
always working for nevada airlines
flying dc3s out of the canyon
and this guy calls up and he says uh i
hear you're 707 qualified
uh do you want to go to work for a
couple of weeks or a couple of months
uh it's a classified mission oh yeah
sure okay it says okay we'll go to
frankfurt and check into the hotel at
the airport
and uh i'll call you there and i said
okay well
how do i get paid
um
for the airplane trip and he said well
you
you pay for it and i'll reimburse you
when you get to the
get to frankfurt so usually i don't do
that but i thought well okay let's do
that
so we went to frankfurt and i checked in
the hotel
and there was a
phone call
and the guy said
meet
you know you see he said be at
lufthansa
at nine in the morning and there's uh
will be tickets to go to budapest
and
uh
you'll meet some other people who
introduce themselves so
the next morning showed up at the
counter at frankfurt there and there was
tickets waiting to go to budapest
and
i saw some other americans standing
around i
and i knew those guys i said what are
you guys doing here and they said well
you don't think you're going to get in
on a deal like this without us doing it
and i said oh yeah well i guess not
so we went to
got on lufthansa went to hungary to
budapest
and when we went through customs
as we
gave our passports to the guy there was
an american guy standing behind the the
budapest customs who reached over and
got the passport and just gave the guy a
nod and then we went through
and then we
we were supposed to go to the
international hotel which we did
and then there was a note
to uh meet that evening at ten o'clock
in rooms such and such
uh
with all these guys it was like about 10
or
10 or 11. i have a picture around here
of the
mystery crew we used to call it the
mystery crew
it's a mystery crew there's a picture
over there
that's my back operation
to me it looks like an ass if you ask me
it looks like a bum but you know we had
to shoot it from there
this is a saudi gazette for the one of
the days we were doing and the name
mystery crew came from this article and
it said mystery 707 flames arms to
somalia and then it says
uh mystery boeing 707 airliner
apparently loaded with arms landed at
mogadishu airport on each of the last
three days
one european airline executive said the
tail was painted yellow
but beneath the coat of paint
the emblem of the west condor
or the west german
uh charter airline condor could be seen
he said he saw somali soldiers
unloading chests of the kind needed for
packing light arms and ammunitions and
so then
this so this is when you're working with
a company or
air america yeah no uh i always work
contract uh not you know i didn't have a
folder with the company
uh the the air america stuff was over in
southeast asia
and uh that was a whole bunch of
different stuff that's the 70s
is that in the 1970s that was 1967 to
1973
1970 yeah 67 to 73. so how does john get
into the airplane business
uh well my dad um
uh
hold on a second and i'll tell you that
i just want to finish this off right
here
that's the mystery crew
and that's that's me where the yellow is
and that's all the guys that were in
so how did i get into uh well my dad was
uh he owned a
had owned and started a company called
uh leer incorporated uh he and paul
galvin had started the original motorola
in uh the early twenties and
they had developed
radio stuff and uh one of the important
things that my dad
alleges that he invented was the b
battery eliminator which allowed you to
play a radio in a car without the static
ruining the uh the audio
uh but anyway he just a filter system
some kind of filter
yeah the b battery eliminator that was
specific the
stuff that they were the thing that
they'd put in to keep the static from
going through the audio
so then he decided to sell his interest
in motorola to paul galvin and then he
started his own company named leer
incorporated and leer incorporated
spent the next uh 25
uh 26 years uh
selling building uh designing
uh radio equipment and mechanical and
pump equipment for the air force
uh
and in 19 uh
in 1955
uh he had built an airplane called the
lear star which was a modification of
the lockheed 18
uh for executives and i think they're
incorporated built about 62 of them and
they were not a financial
success so then in 1957 when he wanted
to build the learjet his board of
directors told him no
and
he
sold his stock in lyric to siegler
became lear siegler corporation and then
he took the money and formed learjet
corporation and
it was in 55 56 that i was learning how
to fly and there was always airplanes at
the airport that i could just use that
belong to lear incorporated so that's
how i started flying
but he didn't like me flying he wanted
me to be a
an artist or
a uh
he wanted you to be an artist an artist
and uh he sent an artist over when we
lived in pacific palisades and then set
up the easel on the on the front lawn
and
and sit there and learn how to paint on
on saturday mornings but i wanted to be
out at the airport so i'd go out there
and
and spent a lot of time out there and
so that's basically how it started and
then
uh in 1963
um i had well in
1962 i had been involved in an accident
airplane accident which really destroyed
me right behind you is that
uh picture and i just wonder if i can
call it up here quickly
there that's the beaker 131 and
and uh
i was doing aerobatics
and uh misjudged my altitude and i was
sitting right there and my face went
right through that
thing and it just went straight in so i
didn't have much of a chance
to uh
help myself or
protect myself so i don't know what all
the other pictures are
a buker
youngman and uh
131
and so it was two place and that's the
front i didn't nobody was sitting in the
front and i was in the back
and it just went straight in i
really i hurt myself so bad that i
remember going to geneva in an ambulance
which is about 45 minutes away from the
boarding school i used to go to
and i remember floating above my body
and looking down and and saying nope
you're hurt too bad you're not going to
make it just it can't
can't happen
but somehow i uh well i know how i got
protected so anyway
i ended up in uh santa monica took me a
year to recover and recoup and
uh i started uh
uh
instructing at hawthorne airport
and uh just doing little jobs uh went
over and instructed at uh
van nuys beachcraft
and
then my dad invited me back to the
factory to get checked out in the lear
and i went back and got checked out and
in and then i was trying to find a job
flying the learjet
and
found a job flying for the flying tiger
line flying the earlier jet
what is the special thing about the
learjet why is it so famous everybody
knows because it was the first it was
the first
business jet and it had the pizzazz and
it had the tick tanks
and
all all the rich people were buying it
at the very beginning in it and ever
after that no matter if there was ten
different types
of business jets manufactured everybody
called them the learjet which they
weren't but that's why that was the
thing in the beginning it was just the
airplane to have
so um and that would have been the first
small
executive light uh you know
jet craft without being a boeing 707
almost
it was it really was a revolution right
it was just a small executive jet and as
a first time at you know business people
could have their own airplane without
having to rely on large airliners to
take them
any place
so then i got to fly in that and
1967
i applied for a job to ferry they wanted
pilots to ferry
uh
the uh fak airplane which was a uh
uh
o2
a and b
over to vietnam and i applied for that
and i didn't know that it was uh
cia but that was the first cia job and i
don't know where i have that
let's see if i can find it what type of
aircraft is that a fak fac
ford air control it was this airplane
yeah should i see if i can find it
what's the name of that thing back
be under f it's uh it's amazing that you
didn't get scared off after nearly
killing yourself
uh well i knew and it was my fault you
know if i'd had done things other than
that i'd
i'd uh had no problem there there it is
that's over in cambodia
that's not it
anyway when i find that airplane that's
the one that i was faring and
i ferried those from 1967 until 1970
1970
over to vietnam and then we'd get
a ticket back and we'd come through hong
kong
and back to wichita pick up an airplane
and
get back to wichita and uh deliver
another one
and that ended in 1971 and your question
was
um
what got you into the company you know i
applied for this job finding these
airplanes and turns out that it was a
cia operation and
so i just kept doing that
and then
in 19
when i got back or when i finished that
contract i flew uh
charter in the learjet
1972 and i heard about this job over in
cambodia flying convairs
so
i applied for that and that's where
these pictures come from this is in
cambodia
and
what sort of aircraft is that when you
mention the aircraft i'm keen to figure
out what's what what's its function that
was a conveyor 440 it was a 52-passenger
airline and it flew passengers from
phnom penh to baton bang in the north
and to compensate
in the southwest
and it was owned by
tri-9 airlines
and the name of the
the airline was uh kamir akase
and uh
did that for a few months and then i
heard about this uh
job
uh that was opening up in uh or that was
open in
bench in laws
and
i went to um
it was my co-pilot that told me and i
said how do i get on he said well you go
down down phnom penh here to the swiss
indo shipping and trading and as for
kurt fuhrer and tell him you want to go
to work for uh continental continental
air services inc was who was running it
so
there's a book over on that shelf there
and it's called uh it was written by one
of the spy books and john le carre
wrote it and in the cover
you'll see the uh
notification escape from laos
is that one it's a big thick one no it's
it's
this one
what's the title escape from laos no
it's a big thick one no it's it's it no
it's john lecaro uh john le carre down
to your left
and it's called um the schoolboy
honorable schoolboy that's what it's
called
on your left behind the telescope
john le carre the honorable school boy
it's a real thick black one you should
see it right there
now just thumb that open and see the the
card in there announces
um
kurt fuhrer that's kirk fear's
announcement that he was killed
and it turns out that he was the head of
the swiss cia
in phnom penh
and that's who i went to to find out
that job up in laws
and
kurt took my information gave it to uh
us and then a guy came through and
interviewed me and that's how i ended up
invention
just hit the shot of the back okay
that's the guy
this is a book called private warriors
by ken silverstein and it came out
oh maybe 10 15 years ago and before it
came out there was a story in harper's
magazine
and uh
it mentioned
bill lear jr but what they meant it was
me and so
my brother called up and he said hey
that wasn't me that was my brother john
and it had already gone to print so they
changed it at the last minute in the
book and in the book
they were able to change the name
because
john lear
is the same letters as bilder jr who
they originally put that and the only
thing that tells you what they did is
they say john lear jr and i'm not junior
i'm senior my brother is bill lear jr
anyway it says here
wharton round up crew members to fly
them among them larry rabb a retired u.s
airman
alberto alberti a compu a cuban exile
who helped lead the bay of pigs
operation and john lear son of the
inventor of the learjet between runs
from budapest to jeddah
the saudis granted stopover rights for
fueling to mogadishu
the pilot stayed in salzburg where glatt
put them up in the hotel rail off anyway
on and on
anyway a lot of this is about that and i
phoned up ken silverstein
and he says i couldn't find you
and i said well i'm here in las vegas
so he said i would have loved to talk to
you about those days and one of the
interesting things is along in the book
here
he talks about
a different airline and reading the
records of where certain airplanes went
and
he put i guess i can't find it here
[Applause]
go right here
he put the torpedoes were picked up in
an airfield near gdansk and flown to
andrews air force base by kalila it has
k-a-l-i-h-a
commercial freight shipper
it's not kalila it's coletta that's who
i worked for and
connie coletta ran that airline but
somehow he couldn't read the uh the
writing
so anyway that was kind of an
interesting book
but
we met at this hotel room
uh at the international hotel room and
uh
we got a phone call to go to this
certain room number and we all met there
and there was like about
12 of us
and wharton comes in and i didn't know
him
and uh
he uh holds up this little piece of
paper as he comes in and we're all
saying hello it just said remember walls
listen
and he held it up pointed at each of us
and then he said uh
welcome to budapest you'll find uh
hungary is a really nice
place to visit particularly in the
beginning of the late fall here and
he said outdoors he said we have the
damage running by
separating
uh budapest he said buddha is on the
north fest is on the south and
and he kills with his dialogue and as
he's telling this dialogue he has this
piece of paper and the piece of paper is
in that log book there in the thing but
he takes it to each one of us as we're
sitting here and hands it to that guy
and points at him and the guy is
supposed to read it and all the time
he's
carrying on this dialogue about
taking a you know a uh a tour around
budapest and then when that guy is done
with it he picks the paper and points at
that guy and he reads it and
all the long he's telling about this and
anyway at the end he gets he says now
we're going to go have some dinner and
we're going to show you
uh the uh the great chain bridge out
here
so
we uh we go out to the
chain bridge which is in front of the
hotel and that's a picture of it over
there i think
and we get in the middle of this change
bridge
and
he said okay here's what we're doing
we're taking arms to mogadishu you're
going to stop in jeddah and here's the
flight numbers you're going to use
coming out of budapest
and here's the flight numbers you're
going to use coming back and just all
the essential information
and then he said
as far as anybody
don't answer any questions if anybody
corners you you say that you're taking
agricultural equipment to africa
so
anyway that ended up being the fly in
those uh budapest
what happened was in those days
uh mogadishu somalia had been supported
by
uh russia and they had old russian and
east block guns
and um
so
the russians had built the deep water
port on the north of somalia called
berbera
and it's very important remember this is
1977. it's very important to get real
estate on the red sea because they knew
that when they started attracting iran
that eventually the straits of hormuz
would be closed and the only way to get
oil out of the middle east would be to
ship it to yanbu on the red sea
and then have it come by tankers either
through the
suez canal
north or south through the gulf of aden
so it was important to get real estate
uh right at the gulf of aden well so
that was when the russians made the
mistake of arming
the ethiopian rebels
and
they were trans right
yeah
and uh somali said well if you're gonna
arm our friends you can get out of here
and they kick them out
but then they get ready to have a war
and they don't have any ammunition
well
you know
uh russian or east black ammunition has
always been one millimeter
um
larger
than west blot
so that they can use our ammunition but
we can't use theirs so we had to we
offered to arm a's hollywood let us help
you out here you know if we can just
have that
deep water pour it yeah no problem so
i wound up taking all the west block uh
all the east block ammunition out of
budapest
down to somalia for
the wars that were being fought for
where wherever
that was the beginning of somalia and we
were seeing the fruits of what i did in
those days getting berbera
the reason that the us i think is
waiting to attack iran is because they
need to be sure that they have aiden and
that no help on it can come out of
aden
to block that
the gulf of aden because the gulf of
aden is a real small place there and so
then lately you've heard that we've had
stories about al qaeda uh
you know the bad guys
um collecting in uh aden to do this and
do that that's not true but we're saying
that so that we have a reason to put our
would put
uh
soldiers uh into
uh ayden to protect the north part and
of course the british were in there
beforehand after the war
so
about were you ever involved in uh
anything in afghanistan in those days it
was soviet they were there but
were you
we know that at some point
no i flew working with some of the
the local
king salors oh i flew into kabul
in 76 and 77
when i was flying for
trans-mediterranean airwaves out of
beirut and it was so fascinating because
afghanistan has been a fascinating
area
for me
and i was reading james michener's
caravans at the time which is about the
history of afghanistan and all the
interesting things that are there and it
just happened when i was reading that i
was flying in there so we'd stay
overnight there and i'd spend as soon as
we landed you know i grab a taxi and go
to you know in each and every place that
i could
to see all this stuff and i was going to
take my wife on a vacation around
afghanistan that summer but i got
transferred to bangkok and i couldn't do
it i'm sorry now because there's been a
lot of changes in afghanistan since then
so you in the 70s where
the russians were having a hard time
there because they're
right they were supported by the cia
c.i.a
uh i mean the russians uh al-qaeda was
formed by the cia to fight the russians
yeah we know that but you weren't in
there with weapons or of you know
doing hard hardware oh this is this was
76 and 77 and none of that was happening
then the russians didn't go in until
what the 80s
no it was before wasn't it
couldn't have been much before because
they weren't there when i was going in
there
so then the mogadishu came to a
close and uh came over here
that was when we lived in cairo and our
kids were
young and it was just tough on merrily
and uh
how many kids did you have and what was
it like i have two with marilee and two
with my first wife i have total four
all girls and um
oh my god i promise yeah right i promise
merely that uh let me finish that work
in cairo and then we would come back
here and i'd get a local job so we did
and i got a job uh flying for
um
different airlines passengers
uh
you know worldwide stuff but stuff that
i could be home so to speak you got a
day job
yeah that's right i got a date can i ask
again about this accident you have and
then you you you take a year to get
well again to get on your feet again and
then you start flying again can you say
more about that it's a bit you know
yeah well the problem was that i'd
broken my uh ankles shattered my ankles
and broke my legs in three places lost
all my teeth broke
my jaw
but
through my career was
i was so interested in flying that i
didn't let the pain bother me of my feet
my feet were
in geneva in 1961
they didn't have any reconstructive
surgery uh all they did was cast the
wound
so
that when
i got older it was going to start
causing me problems which i didn't pay
attention to because i was having a lot
of fun flying
so then after i retired
uh i got time to think about it sitting
behind this desk and it got worse and
worse and worse so
um i have still have it and i use
medication to control it
uh but the reason you have pain is
because you're paying for something you
did in a previous lifetime and so
uh you just have to work through it
until you get into your next life so
what was the spiritual or the the other
reason for for having this accident in
that young age then
well
what was the reason right
because no it's you know that
normally that would have scared anyone
off or flying again or losing interest
no because i knew why it happened i just
started to spin too low
and uh
if i was a paying attention to my
altitude i wouldn't started it but the
altimeter is reading in meters and i
wasn't even sure what altitude i started
it at but i started a three turn spin
and at the second turn i looked and i
saw a barn go by and i was thinking holy
[ __ ] i'm low and you know by the time
that you know i hit but uh i knew that
it was my fault and you know i love to
fly so just because i got banged up
didn't mean that i was going to stay
away with it stay away from it so what
about this you've got to work through
karma from a previous life what
philosophy have you adopted with that
um
what the hell's going on
here uh the purpose of us being on earth
is to
um
learn how to live is for our souls to
mature to learn how to live with
integrity and
learn how to live without envy hate or
greed
and also to express our love to our
family each and every day
uh as much as we can
and that doesn't mean i love you honey
as you're flying out the door that's all
we have to do on earth we don't have to
worry about
africa the war in the middle east um
this or that that's all we have to do
and when we die we get um
we're we enter this huge lobby and if
you see what steve jobs said when he
died his whole family is around his bed
and the last words he said was
uh
oh
oh my
oh my something like that three times
and he was seeing the lobby because it
is so
huge and fantastic
and then you're entered up there and
whoever you happen to believe in on
earth escorts you into the lobby if you
believe in god god's there if you
believe in jesus he's there to end you
if you believe in the buddha the buddha
enters
in the lobby if you believe in
if you're muslim and uh allah allah
meets you there me i believe in the
great pump and pumpkin so the great
pumpkin will meet me and escort me in
the lobby you get to meet your family or
whoever happens to be around the lobby
when the time you get there and then
they take you to a room where you see uh
the good things you did in your life and
the bad things you did in your life and
they know everything there isn't the
slightest little thing you could hide uh
nasty that you did in your life that
they don't know about
there is no judgment they don't have any
judgment whether it's good or bad but if
you haven't learned how to live
with integrity and without any aid or
greed
back to earth or one of the billion
times a billion uh prison planets where
people are go to mature their soul
so
is this a philosophy that you've got as
a result of your crash and you went out
of body or something else
no i was just floating about yeah i was
out of my body i was just floating above
and i looked down and i said you're not
gonna make it this you've got too much
damage and i know why i said that it's
because the the road from uh roll
uh where the boarding school was to
geneva was bumpy and i could feel these
bumps and rattling my insides
and that's what made me think you're not
going to make it there's just too much
that's that's hurt in there so anyway
one of the reasons that you hear about
the little grays here they're just
robots glorified robots and their job is
to
pick you up once when you're three once
when you're seven one two three
they take you to the moon and they be
sure that everything's operating okay
the same as if you have taken in your
car for a 3000 mile inspection oil's
okay
change the oil
fan belt's okay water's okay check the
battery fluid that kind of stuff that's
what they do then after 13 you're picked
up as that as necessary but
sometimes it's not necessary the other
thing they do is they be sure that you
know life is already written it's
already a plan it's already around
already written out exactly how it's
supposed to happen and if you happen to
be in an accident like i was and die
before your time or you know get
seriously hurt before your time they see
that you live so in the very short span
between the time uh
i was five feet from the ground
they came in and they made the uh the um
crash just
less enough that it wouldn't kill me
and uh so and that's why i'm alive so
did you meet them out of body after or a
different time
so uh that's why i uh that's why i lived
so you met the greys and have you
remembered them have you seen them i had
to remember that so where does this
explain your philosophy
why you think it's a great pumpkin that
will come and meet you i'm just kidding
that's a yeah well
i say the great pumpkin because so many
people who believe in god there's no god
i mean
the universe is infinite it goes on
forever it's billions and billions and
billions of
galaxies
you know big but there's no n
and so the people say well you know the
lord jesus you know went send it to the
god and god take care of us
that didn't happen there couldn't
possibly be a god who administers over
how big this universe is it's enormous
you can't even get the average person to
tell you how big the universe is so i
use the great pumpkin rather than say
everybody that there's no god or you
know jesus didn't exist he wasn't
mentioned in the first in the old
testament you know he was just a you
know uh um
back to uh
the great pumpkin yeah the great punk
the reason uh
i said great pumpkin is because people
um
resent sometimes when you say that god
doesn't exist and and i have to tell
them that you know a force exists the
same things are in place uh that you
believe in but there's no god i mean
there could couldn't be one guy that uh
looks over this this entire universe
with what there's no end
and uh and do the things that he's
alleged to do
and um
so that's why i use a great pumpkin
but then again you say you refer to he
as a a guy sitting somewhere which you
discover is not true but
people now talk about god as source
source
a voice no not force but the source the
source yes the source principle
as being god which is
no
universe looking back at itself
and
the
they also talk about
and i i do also about the higher
higher um consciousness
so when you talk about
the you say the meaning of life is to
live with integrity here on earth
that's not the meaning of life that's
how to get
into the uh
into where the adults are into where the
adults play to grow yeah that's the
point of you know this experience here
yeah
so to learn
to learn
what we call higher consciousness
that reflects
that there is such a thing as
higher
you could you can talk about then higher
beings but people now talk about the
source
which is meaningful
to some people if they want whatever
they want to believe in that's okay with
me
i'm not trying to sell anything i don't
have any dvds i don't write any books
i don't have any
tapes
you know i'm just looking for
the truth
and if anybody wants to listen to what i
have to say they're welcome to they
don't have to believe in it because i
don't sell anything you know and uh if
they want to try to sell me
you know god or something like that i
just don't have time because i have you
know i'm busy doing other stuff and i
agree you know you can have your god you
know everything like that but don't
bother me with it
so what do you mean by cleaning out the
petri dish
that was a term that i used when i
didn't know anything when i first
started in this and it was kind of
obvious that every 25 000 years that
this earth was
tumbled uh
so that these great civilization earth
has been here for like
20 to 25 billion years and there's been
these great civilizations grow
and uh
and become civilizations on earth but
they don't last forever there comes a
time
uh and a reason why
they have to be dissolved so they mix
the earth up and and pile mountains on
and you know if you want around earth
there's probably a hundred different
fantastic civilizations buried under the
himalayas or the sahara desert or under
the atlantic or whatever of these these
civilizations that have been before so
when i said clean out the petri dish
this is what i was
thinking they did that that's not right
but it may be right in a certain way all
they're doing is getting
ready for the next
um
source of the next people that come
along if they're humans or whatever they
happen to be growing have you picked
this philosophy up during meeting other
people has she flown around or if this
is something this is this is part of
your nature no this comes from a sleeper
lou balden and he started
he started posting on above top secret
in the summer of uh
2005
and when i started reading his stuff
there it only gone to about 115 pages
and i thought it was interesting it said
are extraterrestrials real
yes as real as the nose on your face so
i read through about 20 pages
and i instinctively knew
this guy
has done that he's been there
and um i want to hear more of this what
made that appeal what was the thing
which which was the one thing there's a
lot of stuff on those he talked about
all his
uh wife he grew up in italy he was the
son of a u.s serviceman he became a u.s
serviceman himself and all during the
time he was growing up and in the
service the aliens would come and pick
him up and take him for tours around the
universe everywhere and feed him all
this information and he could never
figure why they were doing this
and he had you know total recall of all
the different places he went and all the
stuff
and
he wrote two books uh wrote five books
but two of them were in league with the
ufo which is the story of
what um the u.s did with the roswell
crash what they found
on the ship
how they
um
how they uh tried to use it
and uh all the little things that were
there
and the other is uh in the other is
a day with an extraterrestrial and it's
a kind of a neat story about how they
come and pick him up in sam's in
kansas city where he lives and take him
to the farthest reaches of the universe
uh in one day and and just it's kind of
neat so anyway
i got to the 20th
page of his post and what really got to
me was he described how he would be
taken
by the
et's when he worked with the army that
they would send a
u.s
serviceman to pick him up
and they would take him to the outside
of a hangar and when he'd walk in the
the street side of a hangar there would
be these cardboard
um hallways built i mean not cardboard
plywood plywood hallways which would
lead to the craft and he never saw the
craft he would just go in the craft and
there'd be a u.s serviceman standing at
the entrance
and the u.s servicemen had no say in
what was going on they were just there
to provide the plywood hallway and the
space were to park the ship so
that was what told me
this guy
is telling the truth well we're coming
to the end of our first section
so we take a little bit of breather and
then talk about all that stuff in detail
in part two
okay
[Music]
you